Comments on: Question of the Week http://www.shakespeareteacher.com/blog/archives/381 Fri, 05 Dec 2008 04:54:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Bill http://www.shakespeareteacher.com/blog/archives/381#comment-4733 Bill Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:33:19 +0000 http://www.shakespeareteacher.com/blog/archives/381#comment-4733 Welcome, Gedaly! I take your point, but it seems to me there is a difference between the way these suicides are treated. While I do agree that the characters must be in pathetic situations for suicide to be on the table to begin with, there is a sense that the Romans etc. - once that point was reached - did what they were supposed to do when the time came. The Christian suicides are never treated this way. Cleopatra's death strikes me in particular. She has been defeated but not yet dishonored. She fears that she will be humiliated if she is brought back to Rome. Rather than suffer this ignominy, she chooses to die with honor. This isn't a failure to see the big picture. It's an informed and calculated choice. Though as I said, this is something I'm still struggling with, and I appreciate any discussion of the matter. By the way, the Christian suicides I was thinking of were Romeo and Juliet; Lady Macbeth and Ophelia in madness; Othello (if you see him as a Christian, which I do); and arguably Macbeth, if you consider his final act "suicide by cop" or fate or whatnot. If you think Macbeth expects to win his battle with Macduff, then he wouldn't count. But my count is six. I didn't count Goneril, because <em>King Lear</em> takes place in a pre-Christian world. Gedaly, I enjoyed checking out your blog, and I've subscribed to your RSS feed. Welcome, Gedaly!

I take your point, but it seems to me there is a difference between the way these suicides are treated. While I do agree that the characters must be in pathetic situations for suicide to be on the table to begin with, there is a sense that the Romans etc. - once that point was reached - did what they were supposed to do when the time came. The Christian suicides are never treated this way.

Cleopatra’s death strikes me in particular. She has been defeated but not yet dishonored. She fears that she will be humiliated if she is brought back to Rome. Rather than suffer this ignominy, she chooses to die with honor. This isn’t a failure to see the big picture. It’s an informed and calculated choice.

Though as I said, this is something I’m still struggling with, and I appreciate any discussion of the matter.

By the way, the Christian suicides I was thinking of were Romeo and Juliet; Lady Macbeth and Ophelia in madness; Othello (if you see him as a Christian, which I do); and arguably Macbeth, if you consider his final act “suicide by cop” or fate or whatnot. If you think Macbeth expects to win his battle with Macduff, then he wouldn’t count. But my count is six.

I didn’t count Goneril, because King Lear takes place in a pre-Christian world.

Gedaly, I enjoyed checking out your blog, and I’ve subscribed to your RSS feed.

]]> By: Gedaly http://www.shakespeareteacher.com/blog/archives/381#comment-4731 Gedaly Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:52:58 +0000 http://www.shakespeareteacher.com/blog/archives/381#comment-4731 Suicide may have been noble in ancient Rome, and Shakespeare illustrated this a number of times. However I don't think that the Roman characters that Shakespeare writes really had noble deaths with their suicide. It seems that suicide - in plays across the canon - are treated as pathetic, unfortunate outcomes, a tragic mistake. Romeo was overwhelmed and overhasty, Juliet naive, Cassius and Brutus were too proud. It's suicide that makes these plays a tragedy. The pitiful flaw of these characters is that they can't see the bigger picture and can think of no other way out. Roman or Christian, there is never a noble suicide. Suicide may have been noble in ancient Rome, and Shakespeare illustrated this a number of times. However I don’t think that the Roman characters that Shakespeare writes really had noble deaths with their suicide. It seems that suicide - in plays across the canon - are treated as pathetic, unfortunate outcomes, a tragic mistake. Romeo was overwhelmed and overhasty, Juliet naive, Cassius and Brutus were too proud. It’s suicide that makes these plays a tragedy. The pitiful flaw of these characters is that they can’t see the bigger picture and can think of no other way out. Roman or Christian, there is never a noble suicide.

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